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    NeoNote — Abortion is not about women's rights

    ??Abortion is not about women's rights.

    Yes, I know most here do not agree. But there are two things you must consider. First, it's not a right unless the other person has it too. Which means that "reproductive rights" just excluded half the population. Now, that doesn't mean I am saying no abortions. I'm just pointing out that abortion is not a right, any more than designer shoes.

    Second, not all women think that abortion is a right. You can denounce them, you call call them misguided, but they don't agree that abortion is a right.

    Finally, before you complain about judicial decisions, remember that Roe vs. Wade was a judicial decision that circumvented existing law.

    And as I told you before, "these people" see it as a matter of preserving human life. The "opening bid" was Roe vs. Wade. I don't agree with them on everything, but let's get the timeline right.

    Like it or not, the rights of the fetus are a part of the discussion. As are the rights of the father. Reproductive "rights" can't trump that, but reproductive privilege certainly does.

    If this were a matter of rape, you might have a point. But sex is still (mostly) a consensual activity.

    Their passions and their beliefs are just as strong as yours are. They aren't going to accept defeat quietly, anymore than you would.

    While neither you nor they will admit it, the other side has some truth.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, you have damn little power over your health care now. The left isn't blameless and totally virtuous in this matter, and I wish we would stop pretending that they are. Government is government and power over is power over. No matter how noble the motives, no matter how much it's for the common good, it still takes away choice.

    Practically every reason that healthcare is messed up is because of government interference. Whether it is special perks and privileges extended to major pharma firms, or the approval period for new drugs and procedures, or Medicare and Medicaid setting prices for procedures and treatment while exploding costs far beyond inflation, or the active suppression of nurse practitioners, or screwing up insurance so badly that people have no idea what they are paying for or if it would be cheaper not to go through their insurance, the list goes on and on.

    It doesn't help that every government fix involves more government.

    And why do people keep raising the issue of rape when it comes to women's medical care?

    Just to point out the obvious, both Republicans and Democrats have turned women's bodies into battlegrounds where there can be no compromise.

    *sighs* The original stat for American women was one in five women will be sexually abused in their lifetime. Abused, not necessarily raped. It's also not accurate.

    I don't accept your premise of either/or.

    Nor do I accept that sex and abortion are tied to rape. Funny, I don't think that most relationships have to be about who has the power.

    If you don't think that Democrats exploit women's bodies, then why is it so important to denounce the women who don't agree?

    The original study was the 2007 Campus Sexual Assault study conducted by the National Institute of Justice, a division of the Justice Department. Here's what two of the authors had to say:

    As two of the researchers who conducted the Campus Sexual Assault Study from which this number was derived, we feel we need to set the record straight. Although we used the best methodology available to us at the time, there are caveats that make it inappropriate to use the 1-in-5 number in the way it’s being used today, as a baseline or the only statistic when discussing our country’s problem with rape and sexual assault on campus.

    Second, the 1-in-5 statistic includes victims of both rape and other forms of sexual assault, such as forced kissing or unwanted groping of sexual body parts—acts that can legally constitute sexual battery and are crimes. To limit the statistic to include rape only, meaning unwanted sexual penetration, the prevalence for senior undergraduate women drops to 14.3%, or 1 in 7 (again, limited to the two universities we studied).

    Until someone else mentioned it, I deliberately avoided mentioning rape. I specifically talked about sex, responsibility, and abortion. A casual reading of some of the other responses here (including yours) would seem to excuse a woman's responsibility before the fact because of, you know, rape. Maybe I'm just being extra dense here, but it seems like the only reason rape is introduced into the discussion mentioned is to specifically excuse women from responsibility.

    When someone starts offering two and only two alternatives, that's the cue to look for the fourth, fifth, and sixth choices.

    There are conservative women who disagree with you on abortion. Why aren't they a part of the discussion?

    Why should your morality and choices govern the actions of another? Isn't that what you say would happen if conservatives "win?"

    One other thing. Roe vs. Wade. Decided by eight old, rich white dudes and one rich, old black dude.

    “You can't circumvent the topic of rape when discussing abortion.”

    Why not? Are all or most women raped? Do all or most abortions happen because of rape? Why is it so very very necessary to make this part of the discussion when rape is not usually the reason for abortion?

    Again, I am not saying that abortion should be illegal. I am saying that it is more than just the woman involved. I am not arguing over the definition of life. I am not dragging out charts and pictures to show a fetal heartbeat or how it responds to touch at what point in the pregnancy. I am saying that abortion is not a right when it excludes the man. And at a certain point (which I have no idea what is), the fetus.

    If you want men to act responsibly, that means their sex partners should too. That means that yeah, women should think about consequences before sex. That means that if abortion is an option, it should happen before the last trimester and probably before the second. And yes, that means that the man should be involved in the decision. If they aren't, then men are just being encouraged to be irresponsible.

    Just like what is happening now.

    The default is for the man NOT to be involved. The default is for the man to ignore the consequences. Claim that only the woman can choose, and the man doesn't have to choose.

    That's why abortion as it is now is not a right.

    I am not denying that rape happens, although I do not think it is nearly as common in America as some claim.

    I just think that always discussing rape when talking about abortion doesn't do your argument any good. As it is, based on what you say abortions should be performed if the woman was raped and never for any other reason.

    Yes, I am arguing. I am saying that abortion isn't a right if even the discussion doesn't have to include the man. And the man is not usually or even mostly a rapist.

    That's it.

    Everything else is something that others have tried to hang on me.

    *shrugs* Your choice has reduced this to either/or.

    Here's the inevitable result. You can imprison them and/or kill them, or they can imprison/kill you. Force rules. Might makes right. Submission must happen. Power over, now and forever.

    Is that what you want?


    Like I said, reproductive privilege excludes the man. And if a woman excludes the man from the choice, then he has no reason to be responsible. “He is literally just a donor of genetic material…”

    Who said I didn't consider women as human beings?

    I'm a guy who believes the aunts and grandmothers theory of history.

    I seek the Divine in every lady I meet. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes not. Sometimes it's my fault, sometimes not. I knew my first strong woman from before I was born. She learned it from her grandmother, the strongest woman I've ever known (www.neowaylandDOTcom/files/StrongWoman170330.html).

    Why do you assume that because I dissent on some things I would throw you to the Christian patriarchy?

    Why are you measuring somebody's strength by something granted by politicos?

    Again, I haven't said no abortions. I've just said that if it's only the woman's choice, then it's not a right.

    For the last fifty years or so, American men have lost rights when it comes to children. Somehow the discussion about abortion always includes vague allegations of rape and domestic violence as if most men did terrible things to women.

    Most men don't do these things. We're not guilty, we shouldn't be blamed for what we didn't do and are not likely to do. The presumption of guilt should not shape relationships and sex.

    Even now, you are escalating. The discussion started about abortion. Then domestic violence got added. Then rape. And now you added murder.

    Everybody shares a right. Privileges exclude people. Only some get privileges. Privileges are not rights, and rights are not privileges.

    Now I am not talking about rape, I am not talking about domestic violence. I am not talking about what happened 100 years ago or last week in France.

    What I am saying is that if the baseline of social behavior now means that a man will not be involved the decision to have an abortion, then it is a privilege, not a right

    You keep assuming that I have their beliefs.

    I don't.

    I'm saying that it is not about rights when only one person is allowed to decide.

    Then if the man's desires don't count, does that mean they don't owe child support?

    "Want" doesn't have anything to do with it.

    Accepting responsibility does.

    But not if they are denied the choice.

    Then give me numbers instead of allegations.

    At the same time, I'll point out that by excluding men from the decision, they never have to be responsible. Under the circumstances, the surprise is not that some men flake out. It's that others don't.

    It's not just "men" who have this opinion. That's the point. Women don't all agree with you and it's foolish to pretend that they do.

    My first sex rule is "Consenting adults only.". The first derivation of that is "Your desire does not control another's choice."

    I absolutely agree that children need happy families. I also think they need male and female role models, but that is another discussion.

    I think the power and the responsibility doesn't just lie with men.

    I do know that for a while, CA had a law that if the mother published the name of a man she claimed was the father a certain number of times, that man was obligated to pay support even if genetic testing showed there was no relationship. I know a few guys who got caught in that trap.

    I am not saying most women are irresponsible.

    I am saying that having sex without considering the consequences with your partner is irresponsible.

    I'm saying that our "system" of excluding men from the decision about abortion encourages men to be irresponsible and guilt free.

    Do I think that birth control is a good thing? Yes.

    Do I think that abortion is a right? No, not if it doesn't include the man.

    Do I think that late term abortion is a good thing? Definitely not in the third trimester and I would question any that happen in the second.

    Do I think that men can be unfeeling jerks more concerned with their own pleasure than their partner's feelings? Yes, especially if they are not held responsible for their actions. If the man isn't allowed to talk about abortion with his partner, why should he care? That is the society we live in. He's encouraged to think it's the woman's fault if she gets pregnant.

    The hook-up culture certainly hasn't helped. If the guy doesn't have to work at seduction, why should he pay attention to her feelings?

    I still don't think that rape should be part of the discussion about abortion because most abortions happen without rape. The only reason I can see for treating rape as the norm for abortions is to silence criticism about abortion.

    If you want to shut people out of the conversation for whatever reason, that is your choice. Just don't expect them to accept your "rights."

    If you want to blame all of this on men, that's your choice too. But most of them will resent you for it because they didn't do what you are accusing them of.

    So that's where we are. Because I said abortion wasn't a right, you've said I am anti-woman and a bad Pagan and a bad person. But I've not prevented abortions. I've not voted against abortion. I'm not arguing against abortion. All I've said is that abortion is not a right. I haven't tried to turn back the clock.

    If you really want to fight what's happening in these states, you're going to have to find a justification other than the "right to an abortion." I'm being honest with you. I'm not attacking you and I am certainly not attacking women as a group. I am telling truth. It's what I do.??
    NeoNotes are the selected comments that I made on other boards, in email, or in response to articles where I could not respond directly.


    If the American government were a car…

    ??If the American government were a car, you would have patched three tires, overhauled the transmission, replaced the electrical system, and washed the windows. Meanwhile it still leaks oil and has a disturbing habit of catching fire every once in a while.??

    Selective company problems

    None of these companies has a problem operating in European countries with much more restrictive abortion laws than those in the US, nor Arab nations which ban it outright. Disney has a resort in China, not a country known for its liberal approach to human rights. But apparently Georgia is now beyond the pale.
    — Tim Newman, Personae non gratae


    Trust people

    If you can't trust people with freedom how can you trust people with power?
    — anonymous


    Dead white male

    Marx is a dead white male!
    — anonymous
    tip of the hat to Minatina


    Never more government

    ??The answer to bad government is never more government.??
    — NeoWayland

    Break the myth

    ??Let's break the myth that government is the first, best, and last solution.??
    — NeoWayland


    ??The allegations against Trump described the Clintons' behavior.??
    — NeoWayland

    American medical costs

    ??American medical costs started outpacing inflation right after Medicare and Medicaid become law. If that doesn’t convince you, remember those costs rose drastically every time the Federal government tried to “fix” the problem.??
    — NeoWayland

    Between you and paradise

    Everywhere she goes, evil men die, and we cheer her for it. And she grows more sure that she is good and right. She believes that her destiny is to build a better world for everyone. If you believed it; if you truly believed it, would you not kill anyone who came between you and paradise?
    tip of the hat to Panam Post


    Trump's one virtue

    ??Trump's one virtue is that he's a disruptor.??
    — NeoWayland

    Practical feminism

    In the event of a flat tire feminism will be suspended until a man has changed the tire.
    — Kirby McCain


    Agreement and understanding

    We are conditioned from a variety of sources to automatically expect agreement to follow from understanding.
    — Franklin Evans


    Mark of monotheism

    ??Christians over the years have killed a lot more people in the name of their God or for the Greater Good than anyone else. It seems to be a mark of monotheism, and something the rest of us wish the monotheists would grow out of of.??
    — NeoWayland

    Sins of your faith

    ??If you are going to claim enlightenment in the name of your faith, you'd better damn accept the sins too.??
    — NeoWayland

    Blind spots and authority

    ??I know that expertise does more to define blind spots than establish authority.??
    — NeoWayland

    NeoNote — Biblical morality

    Then I choose not to follow a Biblical morality.


    We don't agree with each other

    ??We don't agree with each other, not entirely. Just because someone is religious doesn't automatically mean that they are defective. If nothing else, that faith gives them a different perspective. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong, more or less, just different. Sometimes that's good, sometimes not. It depends on the individual and circumstances.

    Religion is bad is just as big a trap as science is good. There was an author named Isaac Bonewits who wrote on the limitations of dualism. Either/or thinking can trap you. One example is that if something is ACCEPTABLE than everything else is NOT ACCEPTABLE. It becomes easier to define what doesn't work for you as not fitting your worldview instead on it's own characteristics. If all you are looking for is WHITE, than anything else including fuzzy pink becomes NOT WHITE. I'm sure you'll agree that while black and fuzzy pink are NOT WHITE, neither are they the same thing. And we still haven't touched on semi-sweet.??
    — NeoWayland

    “The Numbers Game: Do The Rich Get All The Gains?”

    “Has economic progress in America been shared widely or captured by only the rich? The standard story of stagnating wages takes snapshots of one set of people in the past and compares them to an entirely different set of people in the present. But when you follow the same people over time, it becomes clear that the poor and the middle class are prospering, often gaining more than the richest Americans.”


    “SAT Adversity Score: More Affirmative Action?”

    “The SAT sparked debate with an adversity score that some say would discriminate against Asians. Is this another racist, social justice affirmative action policy? Or a way to genuinely gauge students' hardships?”


    Not part of the climate crisis crowd

    ??I'm a pagan who is not part of the climate crisis crowd. Two of the biggest reasons are the climate changes on Mars during roughly the same period and the fact that the models haven't been accurate yet (and had an 18 year gap). Long story short, we don't know enough about the climate to even say what the baseline is, much less fiddling with the thermostat.??
    — NeoWayland

    NeoNote - Compassion, abortion and faith

    I don't have an answer either, but I think if you asked most conservatives if abortion was more compassionate than taking care of unwanted and/or disabled babies, they would laugh in your face.


    Dangerous liberty

    I prefer a dangerous liberty to peaceful slavery.

    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    - usually attributed to Count Palatine of Posen, cited by Jean-Jacques Rousseau in The Social Contract and later by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to James Madison.


    Government gets involved

    ??When government gets involved, count on costs going up, quality going down, and availability diminishing.??
    — NeoWayland

    “Be so good they can't ignore you.”

    Be so good they can't ignore you.
    — Steve Martin


    “Moral Panic Over Sex Work”

    “Police often use “sex trafficking” and prostitution interchangeably. That’s what happed in the Robert Kraft case, says reporter Elizabeth Nolan Brown.”


    “Health Care is a Mess... But Why?”

    “You probably know a couple who both work full time to support their children, but even with their dual incomes, they’re finding it more and more difficult to afford health insurance. Everyday incidents like sports injuries, asthma, and blood pressure, combined with their anxiety over rising premiums, are turning their American dream into sleepless nights. Why can’t people catch a break? It wasn’t always this way!”


    “Alyssa Milano's SEX STRIKE? Feminist Abstinence Fail”

    “Alyssa Milano raised eyebrows by suggesting a #SexStrike in response to pro-life heartbeat bills in Georgia and Ohio. But this backfired when feminist fans questioned preaching abstinence, and conservatives supported it.”


    Outside the law

    ??I don't think government is the first, best, and last solution.

    I don't think the emergencies are really emergencies. As long as there is a mechanism for government to act outside the law, government will act outside the law.??
    — NeoWayland

    NeoNote — The internet and social media

    …if you are not paying for the product, you are the product.



    The first law is that the desire of authorities in charge of security for information will continue in a straight line with no limits in time and space short of the heat death of the universe. The second law is that the willingness of their authorities to supply them with the budget they need to do that has very definite limits, both in time and space. Hence the third law, which is the one we are now operating under. The information assembled by security authorities invariably overwhelms their ability to analyze the information. They are, in effect, suffocated by their own insecurity.
    — David Weber, Cauldron of Ghosts


    Fear mongering

    ??Democrats have been fear mongering too. Especially since Trump announced.

    I'm not going to say who is right or wrong, but I am going to point out that both major parties have done fear mongering over decades. If that is one behavior you're questioning, you should ask why is it bad when "They" do it and good when "We" do it?

    I too get tired of the dualism. But I don't see it limited to one party.

    My blocked follower on this site would tell you that I am oversimplifying. I don't think I am. Both parties do it. Both parties are contributing to the problem. Both have media allies who sing their praises.??

    Here's what you haven't been told about ethanol

    ??Since ethanol is heavily subsidized in the United States, the price at the pump does not reflect the actual cost to produce. Extra costs are buried in taxes and the Federal general fund. These costs include collecting the tax, administering the tax, administrating the production and distribution of ethanol, and actual subsidies. It's nearly impossible to accurately calculate these costs, much less contain them.

    Even with substantial subsidies, the technology doesn't exist to make ethanol economically from anything except food crops. Theoretically, almost any plant material can be used. Practically we haven't reached that point yet.

    Government mandates and artificial demands for ethanol raise global food costs. The more crops required for ethanol, the bigger demand on food crops. The more ethanol that is required by law, the less food the poor can afford.

    Mixing ethanol with gasoline makes fuel with less energy. More fuel must be used to move the same distance. There is ever growing political pressure to increase the ethanol and decrease the gasoline in the mix, which means even more fuel is needed.

    Ethanol does not burn "cleaner" than gasoline. Ethanol does produce fewer greenhouse gases, but science hasn't yet found significant evidence that human-caused greenhouse gases significantly change the climate.

    Ethanol is much more chemically reactive. Special (expensive) measures must be taken to transport and store ethanol. It doesn't "keep" as well as gasoline.

    Farming crops to produce a gallon of ethanol takes more than a gallon of gasoline, especially considering the soil additives needed.??


    Yes, that reading is subject to interpretation. By experts determined to prove that their expertise should trump your common sense.



    I've started using my long dormant Twitter account. There's nothing exciting there, just "political soundbites." I don't intend to follow anyone or comment on their tweets. I'm going to use Twitter my way.


    “Ideas are far more powerful than guns”

    Ideas are far more powerful than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?
    — Joseph Stalin


    Nothing in common

    Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.
    — Alexis de Tocqueville


    What would Walt think?

    ??There's a part of me that can't help but wonder what ol' Walt would have thought about a bunch of stormtroopers marching around the Disney parks. Even if it is May the Fourth.??
    — NeoWayland

    Vulgar mistake

    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
    — Ralph Waldo Emerson

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